Nature, Schmature - Nuture, Schmurture

[JJuggle]

When I was a child my mother used to sing this ditty to me:

I went down to Mt Sinai Hospital,
to see my old zady* there.
He said I'm glad we got the medicaid,
and I wish we had the medicare.

*zady = grandfather in Yiddish (rhymes with lady)

When I was 15 or 16 my parents gave me a summer job in their shop assembling photoelectric devices. On my first day I was 10 minutes late. My father took me aside and told me whether its family or not, lateness to work is never to be tolerated. As a matter of pride and upholding your contract, verbal or written, with your employer, be on time.

What made you (the neurotic) who you are today?

Raphael Lasar
Matawan, NJ

[Borges]

In my first months I was, as all babies, unable to tell thoughts from reality and to define myself as seperate from the rest of the world. Diagnosis: Schizofrenic.
Then, later I was, as all toddlers, unable to imagine that other people had feelings. Diagnosis: psychopath
Then, as many children, I was afraid of the monsters in the dark. Diagnosis: Paranoid.
And, like almost every child, started insisting that everything had to be a certain way and changes in routines worried me. Diagnosis: Neurotic.
Then puberty set in with its emotional rollercoster rides. Diagnosis: Manic depressive.

Now I suppose I should grow up and start being neurotic again like everyone else.

[PopeSamXVI]

When I was younger my grandfather burned a dollar and then took me out to show me what it could buy. He must have taken me to the right place (perhaps a dollar tree) because there was a lot.

Now I'm super cheap. I don't believe in tipping because the person is doing their job.

Not neurotic, but it contributed to a fault of mine.

[tomblackwood]

Originally posted by JJuggle
When I was a child my mother used to sing this ditty to me:

I went down to Mt Sinai Hospital,
to see my old zady* there.
He said I'm glad we got the medicaid,
and I wish we had the medicare.

To the tune--I assume--of "St. James Infirmary"...

[digigal1]

Originally posted by PopeSamXVI
Now I'm super cheap. I don't believe in tipping because the person is doing their job.

Not neurotic, but it contributed to a fault of mine.

Dude, that IS super cheap. Do you know those people (my mother was one of them) are allowed to be paid less than minimum wage, under the assumption that they will get tips? And furthermore, they are taxed by the federal and state governments based on the assumption that they will receive 15% in tips? So if you aren't tipping, they are getting tiny wages AND they have to pay tax on the tip they didn't get!!

Please reconsider your position on tipping.

[PopeSamXVI]

I did not know that.

My solution would not be to start tipping, it would be to get the laws changed.

[bugman]

Originally posted by PopeSamXVI
I did not know that.

My solution would not be to start tipping, it would be to get the laws changed.

You're right. Everyone knows that I am all for more laws.:D So I think I will write a bill outlawing stingy people.:p

Now I will say that there are a lot of jobs that do pay regular wages, that abuse the whole tipping for good service thing. Like the guy who holds the door, the cable guy, post office delivery people, people who make the beds at the hotel, the guys that deliver the pine straw, etc... Now if I ask for extra service, like having the pine straw put in 2-3 locations instead of one, I'll tip. They went the extra mile for me, so that's cool. But tipping in the bathroom so someone will turn on the water and hand me a towel.:rolleyes: On second thought, I don't really like touching anything in the bathrooms, so maybe it is worth it.:D

[boyrider]

Wow

[digigal1]

Originally posted by PopeSamXVI
I did not know that.

My solution would not be to start tipping, it would be to get the laws changed.

How about a compromise? Work on getting those laws changed, but in the meantime, start tipping the poor bastards. Otherwise we will all KNOW you're just faking.

[JJuggle]

Originally posted by bugman
people who make the beds at the hotel, the guys that deliver the pine strawI definitely tip the hotel cleaning staff. What is that about pine straw?

Raphael Lasar
Matawan, NJ

[bugman]

Originally posted by JJuggle
I definitely tip the hotel cleaning staff. What is that about pine straw?

Raphael Lasar
Matawan, NJ

Down in the south, we have grass yards, and the rest is what are referred to as pine isands. So they deliver 100's of bales of pine straw to your yard and the get spread out for ground cover were your bushes, trees, and flowers are. Some use mulch, some use rock, most use pine straw.

[PopeSamXVI]

Originally posted by digigal1


How about a compromise? Work on getting those laws changed, but in the meantime, start tipping the poor bastards. Otherwise we will all KNOW you're just faking.

I'll work on getting the laws changed when I start working in one of those positions.

[digigal1]

So you can conveniently cheat servers out of their tip until the powers that be stop everything else they're doing and change the law. Cheap...Creep...

[zod]

Originally posted by bugman


Down in the south, we have grass yards, and the rest is what are referred to as pine isands. So they deliver 100's of bales of pine straw to your yard and the get spread out for ground cover were your bushes, trees, and flowers are. Some use mulch, some use rock, most use pine straw.

My yard is 1.5 acres..........I've been thinking about pine strawing the whole freakin' thing so that I don't have to spend 3 hours mowing every week :D

[bugman]

Originally posted by zod


My yard is 1.5 acres..........I've been thinking about pine strawing the whole freakin' thing so that I don't have to spend 3 hours mowing every week :D

I have someone mowing mine now. But if Kerry gets elected and raises my taxes, I'll have to fire him and do it myself. That's about 6 hours a week that will be stolen from my family so I can be sure to pay my taxes.

[Borges]

Originally posted by PopeSamXVI


I'll work on getting the laws changed when I start working in one of those positions.

So, will give tips until then?

Btw. you can only legally pay less than minimum wage if the tips actually make up for the difference.

[PopeSamXVI]

Oh, then we're all set.

[digigal1]

God damn it! PopeSam, you're being insufferable! You might as well admit that you wouldn't give a proper tip no matter WHAT!!

And Borges, you are misrepresenting the issue. Federal law mandates that at the end of the day a person makes minimum wage. But how to do this? Do you think the restaurant down the street will tally the servers' tips every day, and if they didn't make enough to bring them to at least minimum wage, they'll change everyone's hourly pay? That just doesn't make sense. Recordkeeping would be impossible. What happens is, the resturant has to calculate what wait staff is expected to make in tips, based on percentage of estimated sales. Then the restaurant only has to suppliment that number with the hourly wage. If a whole lunch crowd of PopeSams come in, that server is not only making squat, they'e LOSING money.

I'm all for withholding tips if your server is an a-hole, or takes forever to bring your drink then spills it on you, but if you're too cheap to tip someone who is pleasant and breaks their back for you, eat at McDonalds or make your own food.

[JJuggle]

Originally posted by digigal1
I'm all for withholding tips if your server is an a-hole, or takes forever to bring your drink then spills it on you, but if you're too cheap to tip someone who is pleasant and breaks their back for you, eat at McDonalds or make your own food. Well said. I agree.

Raphael Lasar
Matawan, NJ

[Borges]

It's not common to give tips around here, so I'm not that familiar with how the system really works. I assumed it was up to the employer to prove that their employees made minimum wages. I'm used to writing the tip on the bill, otherwise I can't keep track of my expenses. I thought they kept track that way.

There must be some way of enforcing the minimum wage law. An employer can't just claim that the tips make up for more than half your pay, right? That would be one messed up system.

[wentz]

Two and a half reasons to tip:

1: If you never tip, you have no way of expressing dissatisfaction with bad service. Sure you can leave two-cents to show that you didn't forget to tip, but then the servers know that if they treat you poorly next time they will have an easier job and will get more money from you.

2: Have you ever noticed that the coffee from people who know you don't tip tastes different from the coffee from people who think you do tip? You may think it's your imagination, but it'snot.

3(ish): You're at a restaurant with some friends, the attractive waitress (who thinks you're hot) is listening to your conversation while she waits the tables. She makes a mental note as you gripe about unoriginal unicycling comments you've heard. Finally, as you leave, she heads over to ask for your number, but sees that you left no tip and turns away. Instead of a storybook romance ending in "and they lived happily ever after..." she goes to the National Waiter and Waitress Convention and spreads the word. Because of you, no unicyclist can get a cup of coffee anywhere without hearing "Where's your other wheel?" and "More coffee for the clown!"

[PopeSamXVI]

The server never breaks their back for a customer, they do their job. They are paid to take my order and then bring it to me. I shouldn't have to pay for their wages, it's like paying taxes for things that don't benefit me directly.

Besides, waiters have to pay taxes on their tips, so I'm saving them money.

[johnfoss]

Originally posted by PopeSamXVI
The server never breaks their back for a customer, they do their job. They are paid to take my order and then bring it to me. I shouldn't have to pay for their wages, it's like paying taxes for things that don't benefit me directly.All right Pope, I've made the mistake of peeking into Just Conversation again, and I just can't stay out.

You are still young. You have a choice about whether you grow up as an uncultured boor or not (even if you don't have to look those words up you can still be an uncultured boor).

You can try to change the multi-billion (trillion?) dollar restaurant and service industry, but it may take most of your lifetime. Good luck, and I will definitely vote with you. But in the meantime...

In Japan, you don't tip. The business/service/wage environment is not set up that way. No tips and generally very good to excellent service (I was there 18 days). The workers in Japan are paid on a structure that doesn't include tips, and it's kind of an insult for you to give them (I'm explaining this for the people who might feel guilty). By tipping you are suggesting their service isn't up to par at all times. That's the Japanese way.

You have no idea how much back-breaking the server does. Ever worked in a restaurant, or fast food? I already know you haven't, because you have no idea. I have worked in ice cream, which isn't as hard, but I have plenty of friends who tell me what hard work food service is. Try it for a few months (if you can last that long) and see if you have the same opinion.

You do not live in Japan. The pay structure for people in tip-oriented jobs includes an assumption of tips. That is the American way. Like it or not, you live here. Don't tip, and you will embarrass the people you dine with. They may not say anything to you, but they'll sure talk to each other.

You already do (or will) pay taxes for things that don't benefit you directly. When you tip, it's for the person right in front of you. When at a restaurant, it also usually goes to the people you don't necessarily see, like the bussers, hostess, etc.

As for the guy in the bathroom, I have to agree with Bugman. Please don't help me, and get a job in a better environment! Usually I only see these guys in Casino bathrooms, where the cigarette smoke is intense.

Other jobs are built on tips as well. I used to be a pizza driver. Dominos pays you on a structure that assumes you will get tips, and basically assumes your car costs nothing to operate. This is why their stores invariably have "Drivers Wanted" signs out front. Regular customers who don't tip don't get their pizzas as fast, believe me. And they don't deserve them. Who wants to go to a house where you know they don't tip? You I guess. Try that job.

Or you can avoid all jobs that involve living off tips. Not a bad idea career-wise, but they can be great starter jobs, to teach you the value of work, which you seem relatively new to. But in any case, you still live in a culture where tipping is the accepted norm.

Besides, waiters have to pay taxes on their tips, so I'm saving them money. No, you missed the explanation. They pay tax on an *estimated* amount of tips, not what they actually get. They pay the same regardless of you.

---

So what was this thread originally about?

[JJuggle]

We have been regulars at a local Friendly's since before our daughter was born. For the past 5 years we've sat in the section of the same waitress who also works cleaning houses. She's a single mother with a deadbeat ex-husband. She's always been terrific to us.

When we bought our most recent car we gave her our used one.

Raphael Lasar
Matawan, NJ

[digigal1]

With the above post, I hereby change my signature.

[JJuggle]

Originally posted by digigal1
With the above post, I hereby change my signature.

Raphael is my hero.
Truthfully, it was my wife's idea.

How about, "Raphael's wife is my hero." :)

Raphael Lasar
Matawan, NJ

[bugman]

Originally posted by JJuggle
Truthfully, it was my wife's idea.

How about, "Raphael's wife is my hero." :)

Raphael Lasar
Matawan, NJ

Truely cool. Sounds like my wife. Nothing like helping people who really are trying.

[digigal1]

Originally posted by JJuggle
Truthfully, it was my wife's idea.

How about, "Raphael's wife is my hero." :)

I'm sure your wife is a lovely person, but you've actually been my hero for awhile now. That one just pushed it over the top.

[GILD]

Originally posted by JJuggle
How about, "Raphael's wife is my hero." :)she doesn't ride
sorry, but that means she doesn't qualify
:p

[PopeSamXVI]

I've never gotten to know a waiter before. I don't like to frequent restaurants because you don't get the frequent change of scene.

[JJuggle]

Originally posted by PopeSamXVI
I've never gotten to know a waiter before. I don't like to frequent restaurants because you don't get the frequent change of scene. Are you calling me a boring middle age, middle class, suburban, family man who maybe eats a few too many french (yes, FRENCH) fries (with HEINZ ketchup on them) or something? Why I oughta!

Raphael Lasar
Matawan, NJ

[PopeSamXVI]

No, I'm not.

At least not in those words.:D

[GILD]

Originally posted by PopeSamXVI
I don't like to frequent ...very wise,
very wise indeed
u don't want to go back to a restaurant where u've become known as a non-tipper
watch 'CHEATERS' and simmilar surveilance footage shows if u don't want to believe me
whatever u do, don't go back to a restaurant where u're known as a non-tipper
and don't be served by a waitron u haven't tipped in the past
(waitrons may forget the odd drink or side-order, but when it comes to non-tippers, they have elephantine memories)
even when he/she changes job and is now working at a restaurant where u haven't not-tipped before, don't be served by a waitron u did not tip in past

if u can't afford to tip, u can't afford to eat out
if/when u go to a restaurant where a 10% service charge is included in your bill (mostly continental europe i think), are u going to demand that they remove the service item from the bill?
i'll pay money to watch u explain your position in a Paris cafe

get over yourself

start tipping

(go google the word 'tithing', tipping, u'll see, is good for your soul)

:cool:

[PopeSamXVI]

That's quite enough of that!

I've considered the arguments and have decided that, until the laws change, I will tip the usual 15-20 percent. 15 for regular, 20 for above expectations, 5 for sub-par.

Next time I go out and pay, rest assured, I'll do it.

Is that good enough for all of you!?

[GILD]

Originally posted by PopeSamXVI
Is that good enough for all of you!? the main question is if it's good enough for U

we're just silent ships, passing in the night, u've got to live with yourself every day

(good call btw)
:)

[digigal1]

Originally posted by GILD
watch 'CHEATERS' and simmilar surveilance footage shows

I saw one where the bartender was relieving himself in someone's drink. Right there at the bar. He just turned to face the wall, made like he was stirring. There are sickos out there, people!!