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  • Pinoclean
    replied
    Originally posted by Eric aus Chemnitz View Post
    Here in Germany, Municycle.com (UDC) sells KH, but Ajata also sells them and even Qu-Ax has a stock of KH parts and unicycles.
    The problem is: if you want to sell KH, do you want to organise and pay the extra container of KH stuff from Taiwan directly to your shop? Or would you just call your local UDC and ask them to order one extra container for you which you will get from them then? I think every other reseller is quite happy about UDC organising all the supply chain from the factories in Taiwan to all resellers over the world.
    Well the shopkeeper who mentioned the current distribution setup (in 2014) did want to get KH stuff directly to their shop and didn't like that they had to buy it through UDC, but it wasn't an option so they chose not to sell it instead.

    I am sure some resellers are happy with the arrangement, but the fact that hardly any shops sell it outside of UDC but they do sell other brands suggests that there may be many who are not.

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  • aracer
    replied
    Originally posted by Pinoclean View Post
    I am not saying they shouldn't sell to UDC I am saying they shouldn't give UDC exclusive rights to sell, if someone comes along from a country that has a UDC but also wants to sell KH, let them sell it by buying from KH not having to buy them from UDC.
    It's kind of bindun, but you're suggesting setting up a separate distribution channel which isn't cost effective given the numbers involved. I'm sure shops could buy direct from KH if they wanted to organise the shipping themselves, but it doesn't make business sense for them to do so (the extra profit UDC makes on a KH is profit on them providing the distribution service - it just so happens that they act as distributor and retailer, when in most markets such things are separated, which should tell you something about the unicycle market).

    I think that is not true. Quax though previously extremely uncommon in Australia is now probably the number one ridden frame by young riders in clubs in Australia because that's what the people who are at the club distribute.
    But then Quax operates at a different price point to KH - I was going to suggest competing directly with Nimbus, but actually I think undercutting Nimbus slightly whilst providing similar levels of quality. Hence it's relatively easy for them to increase market share. Given KH pricing they sell only to real enthusiasts.

    I consider 25.4 irregular because my first ever riding was urban and KH and Impacts all had 27.2.
    Ah, I was wondering that - AFAIK 25.4 is the standard size, it's certainly by far the most common size. So just different to the size you have.

    I have never seen a broken Equinox frame but perhaps people do not ride them in urban styles enough. The shape looks horrible for trials r.e. knees.
    Not terribly different to the standard Nimbus trial, or an Impact Reagant. Though I note the latter seems to be marketed as "street/flatland" - which is probably closer to what I do with it, though I'm far from hardcore even at that - it's just a multi-purpose small wheel, and as my only little wheel I didn't want a round crown with nowhere to put a foot.

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  • Tony Black
    replied
    KH And Quax

    Kris Holm And Qu-ax Are cooperating on many things- Kg sold freeride saddle base to qu-ax And eventuálně designed the foam. And Qu-ax IS official distributor of KH's in Europe (I asked Kris Holm And that's what je answered me)

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  • Eric aus Chemnitz
    replied
    Originally posted by Pinoclean View Post
    I am not saying they shouldn't sell to UDC I am saying they shouldn't give UDC exclusive rights to sell, if someone comes along from a country that has a UDC but also wants to sell KH, let them sell it by buying from KH not having to buy them from UDC. Quax appears to sell to anyone who wants to sell. There are at least three unicyclists selling Quax unicycles in Australia and every bike shop here appears to stock only Torkers. I am sure if the unicyclists were able to sell KH they would probably choose to over Quax.
    Here in Germany, Municycle.com (UDC) sells KH, but Ajata also sells them and even Qu-Ax has a stock of KH parts and unicycles.
    The problem is: if you want to sell KH, do you want to organise and pay the extra container of KH stuff from Taiwan directly to your shop? Or would you just call your local UDC and ask them to order one extra container for you which you will get from them then? I think every other reseller is quite happy about UDC organising all the supply chain from the factories in Taiwan to all resellers over the world.

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  • Pinoclean
    replied
    I love your knowledge of unicycle history John

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  • johnfoss
    replied
    In the beginning, all was dark and there was no unicycle market to speak of. There was an Internet, but at the time, it was just a unicycling mailing list, which was followed by rec.sport.unicycling, a Usenet newsgroup. Unicycles were basically not for sale online, though you might have been able to find a used one in eBay or something.

    Semcycle, and probably a few others, had websites, but e-commerce was still in its infancy, and you had to know there was such a thing as a Semcycle, or DM Engineering, to be able to go there and order a unicycle from them. You certainly couldn't Google it; Google didn't exist yet.

    Then, in 1998, a technical writer at IBM got the idea of creating an online store for unicycles. He didn't know much about unicycles, and especially about the "bicycling" market, but he persisted. He called his company Unicycle Source International. He later spent the ridiculous sum of $5000 US to buy a more "marketable" domain name, unicycle.com. We thought he was crazy (probably especially Amy, at the time)!

    But the Drummonds were far-sighted. They envisioned the idea of a unicycle market; something that essentially didn't exist yet. Unicycles built to specific price points, and to fill gaps in the types and cost levels that existed as things developed. Before unicycle.com, the vast majority of unicycles came from bike shops. But the majority of bike shops were never experts on unicycles, and less than 1% of them would carry multiple brands. Usually nothing but a 20" and a 24", and maybe a giraffe, and that was it. People didn't know there were more interesting unicycles available.

    If you were in-the-know, you had heard about higher-end products, from companies like Miyata, Semcycle, DM, Pashley and others. But that was almost all word of mouth, and mail order. Miyata only sent two containers of unicycles/parts to the USA per year. Once they ran out, you were SOL until the next container arrived. That sucked.

    So by thinking in terms of a market, the folks at UDC (which included Roger Davies and others at this point) created a place where you could actually shop for unicycles! This was basically unheard of before, unless you went to a unicycle convention or similar type of event. Fast-forward a few years, and you can see in the unicyclist.com archives, thread after thread after thread of people asking which unicycle to buy? Because they had a choice. Those are probably still the most common type of thread on here.

    So today, shopping at UDC is kind of like shopping at Fry's Electronics. Fry's is a gigantic store that caters to nerds (and now general consumers as well), with a dizzying array of what seems like every brand and type of computer, component and accessory you can find. They try to have it all under one roof so the consumer can decide what he/she wants. I think that's the idea at UDC also, though they don't have absolutely everything.

    In the case of some of those specific products, sometimes the odd behavior might be related to quantity. If 24" and 26" frames were made, but it was a one-time deal, or not very many are available, they may keep it on the down-low rather than have people wanting something that suddenly becomes unavailable. UDC wants customers to be able to order whatever's on the site, though we know unicycles are made in small batches, so they do run out from time to time.

    That's why they don't sell Schlumpf hubs/unicycles, for instance, because they are in such high demand they are often mostly sold by the time they're actually made. You want for your customers to be able to receive whatever you're selling, without any long wait.

    Disclaimer: This "capsule history" of online unicycle sales was done without any specific research; just based on my memories of what has occurred. Parts of it are basically guaranteed to be inaccurate. It contains no intentionally alternate facts.
    Last edited by johnfoss; 2017-02-02, 01:16 AM.

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  • Pinoclean
    replied
    Originally posted by aracer View Post
    What is their alternative? If their aim is to sell as many unicycles as possible, then it is clear they will do that better distributing through UDC than they will going it alone (if you're suggesting they should set up their own distributors in multiple countries, then I suspect you don't realise the cost of doing so).
    I am not saying they shouldn't sell to UDC I am saying they shouldn't give UDC exclusive rights to sell, if someone comes along from a country that has a UDC but also wants to sell KH, let them sell it by buying from KH not having to buy them from UDC. Quax appears to sell to anyone who wants to sell. There are at least three unicyclists selling Quax unicycles in Australia and every bike shop here appears to stock only Torkers. I am sure if the unicyclists were able to sell KH they would probably choose to over Quax.

    Originally posted by aracer View Post
    Clearly just reading this thread there is a market for KH amongst enthusiasts who will buy them however they are distributed, and it's unlikely any other method of distribution would widen that market.
    I think that is not true. Quax though previously extremely uncommon in Australia is now probably the number one ridden frame by young riders in clubs in Australia because that's what the people who are at the club distribute. If that continues and young riders continue to ride what they are comfortable with then I think you will probably see Quax increasing marketshare in Australia which is quite amazing as 3 years ago Quax was unheard of here.

    Originally posted by aracer View Post
    Regarding some of the minor points - what do you consider an irregular seatpost size? In what way is an alu KH frame stiffer than an alu Oracle frame with similar leg dimensions and similar weight?
    I consider 25.4 irregular because my first ever riding was urban and KH and Impacts all had 27.2. The posts are definitely stronger for urban riders, however I agree almost all posts break at the metal plate on top not at the tube so I am unsure of how the diameter makes a difference. All my unicycles including my hockey unicycles and munis use 27.2 so that whenever something breaks I can switch my seatpost over and keep riding until I get a new one. The comment on stiffness was made by Finn, I am not sure I can feel difference in frame stiffness so I have no idea between a KH and Oracle and how stiff they feel.

    Originally posted by aracer View Post
    My unicycles are a mix, with some decisions being made on budget, but I got an Oracle 29er frame rather than a KH out of choice (the difference in price when I bought was minimal - I prefer a round crown for muni, and not keen on the blue!) though it is fitted with Spirit cranks. Interested to see the comment on the Equinox trials as I have one of those - though it is a custom build I got before UDC did a complete uni with an Equinox frame and a 19" wheel (I sometimes wonder if they copied my spec, as it is very similar to what I have!)
    The difference in price of Oracles and KH's used to be minimal but at that point the KH came without brake and the Oracles did, so they still were not comparable in price. Now the KH is $200 more but it comes with a brake as well.

    I have never seen a broken Equinox frame but perhaps people do not ride them in urban styles enough. The shape looks horrible for trials r.e. knees.
    Last edited by Pinoclean; 2017-02-01, 10:58 PM.

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  • aracer
    replied
    Originally posted by Pinoclean View Post
    I don't own a nimbus I do own 4 kh's and 4 impacts. I don't want irregular seat post sizes and I hate ventures. I still think it's a dumb ass business decision to give exclusive distribution to your biggest competitor though.
    What is their alternative? If their aim is to sell as many unicycles as possible, then it is clear they will do that better distributing through UDC than they will going it alone (if you're suggesting they should set up their own distributors in multiple countries, then I suspect you don't realise the cost of doing so). Clearly just reading this thread there is a market for KH amongst enthusiasts who will buy them however they are distributed, and it's unlikely any other method of distribution would widen that market.

    My understanding is also that Kris and Roger are friends and that they collaborate on some things.

    Regarding some of the minor points - what do you consider an irregular seatpost size? In what way is an alu KH frame stiffer than an alu Oracle frame with similar leg dimensions and similar weight?

    My unicycles are a mix, with some decisions being made on budget, but I got an Oracle 29er frame rather than a KH out of choice (the difference in price when I bought was minimal - I prefer a round crown for muni, and not keen on the blue!) though it is fitted with Spirit cranks. Interested to see the comment on the Equinox trials as I have one of those - though it is a custom build I got before UDC did a complete uni with an Equinox frame and a 19" wheel (I sometimes wonder if they copied my spec, as it is very similar to what I have!) But then I'm not hardcore enough to be breaking things, so any tendency of that frame or 25.4 seatposts to break isn't really an issue (though regarding seatposts failing, that's surely down to manufacture rather than size - I've had one fail at the welds which is independent of the diameter).

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  • Pinoclean
    replied
    Originally posted by finnspin View Post
    200$ extra is roughly 30% of the original price. Yes, the difference in quality not huge except for the cranks, but but every single part of a Kris Holm is a bit better, and one of the best on the market (excluding the super premium triton/ made in italy mad4one stuff). I ride an oracle 26" with some different parts on it as my muni as well, and like it, but the decision for it was made because it was second hand and cheap. I might have lost the beginners perspective a bit, but things like a stiffer frame are great, the difference between 25.4mm vs 27.2mm seatpost is not noticable when riding, but 25.4mm posts break too easily, a lighter wheel is nice, things like that.

    I am sorry if you bought one, but the Nimbus Equinox (Trials) is not even available anymore in most places. They put essentially a freestyle frame on a Trials Uni, and they broke easily.

    Nimbus has evolved yes, but so has Kris Holm and all other brands. But just because the Nimbus stuff now is better than the Nimbus stuff back in the day, it does not mean that the Kris Holm stuff has not evolved along. There are almost no cases of broken KH frames anymore. The Seatposts last longer. The Hubs don't have breaking flanges or make creaking noises.

    Kris Holm unicycles are 200$ "better" than Nimbus. If almost every part on something is a bit better, and there is a 24% price difference, they are not competing directly in my eyes. Maybe think of them as 600$ vs 800$ Laptops of the same model, the 800$ one will have a faster response, more storage, maybe a better screen. Both will get your emails fine, browse the internet but you will have to have them run some really demanding to notice a bigger difference.

    I didn't want to turn this in a KH vs. Nimbus debate, so this will be the last post I make on the are Nimbus and Kris Holm competitors topic.

    I don't own a nimbus I do own 4 kh's and 4 impacts. I don't want irregular seat post sizes and I hate ventures. I still think it's a dumb ass business decision to give exclusive distribution to your biggest competitor though.

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  • finnspin
    replied
    Originally posted by Pinoclean View Post
    They may not compete exactly 1 to 1 in stock form however if you compare the UDC UK store the Oracle 26 is $660* the KH is $860*. For the $200 extra you can change parts before purchase or change parts after purchase and I am sure you will end up with a unicycle that is basically as good as the KH or very few will notice a difference.
    200$ extra is roughly 30% of the original price. Yes, the difference in quality not huge except for the cranks, but but every single part of a Kris Holm is a bit better, and one of the best on the market (excluding the super premium triton/ made in italy mad4one stuff). I ride an oracle 26" with some different parts on it as my muni as well, and like it, but the decision for it was made because it was second hand and cheap. I might have lost the beginners perspective a bit, but things like a stiffer frame are great, the difference between 25.4mm vs 27.2mm seatpost is not noticable when riding, but 25.4mm posts break too easily, a lighter wheel is nice, things like that.
    Similar with Equinox ($490) KH 20 ($615).
    Because of this I think they are very much competing, unlike before where the only nimbus trials was the "Nimbus II" knee basher in steel, and the nimbus II heavy as a tank mountain uni.
    I am sorry if you bought one, but the Nimbus Equinox (Trials) is not even available anymore in most places. They put essentially a freestyle frame on a Trials Uni, and they broke easily.

    Nimbus has evolved yes, but so has Kris Holm and all other brands. But just because the Nimbus stuff now is better than the Nimbus stuff back in the day, it does not mean that the Kris Holm stuff has not evolved along. There are almost no cases of broken KH frames anymore. The Seatposts last longer. The Hubs don't have breaking flanges or make creaking noises.

    Kris Holm unicycles are 200$ "better" than Nimbus. If almost every part on something is a bit better, and there is a 24% price difference, they are not competing directly in my eyes. Maybe think of them as 600$ vs 800$ Laptops of the same model, the 800$ one will have a faster response, more storage, maybe a better screen. Both will get your emails fine, browse the internet but you will have to have them run some really demanding to notice a bigger difference.

    I didn't want to turn this in a KH vs. Nimbus debate, so this will be the last post I make on the are Nimbus and Kris Holm competitors topic.

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  • bouin-bouin
    replied
    URC and Mad4One are the same company with 2 levels of quality, now Marco Vitale is producing in Taiwan, no more in Italy, much more cheaper solution

    Kris is 50% geologist, 50% KHU manager

    CDK is buing KH unicycles from Municycle if I'm right, may be with special discount considering the high volumes of sales; CDK is getting Impact unis from UDC.UK. CDK is still getting QU-AX unis from Laribouldingue even Laribouldingue has very low sales for unis.

    KH unis prices are "recommended" by KHU, in the past some shops in USA were selling KH unis with very good price, now they don't sell KH unis anymore ...

    Yoggi who was trial world champion created Koxx One in association with French BMX bike company Koxx, then he created Impact when he left Koxx One, he sold Impact to UDC because of not enough market to make money. Koxx and Koxx One are no more existing

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  • Vertigo
    replied
    Did you know that Kris Holm has another job unrelated to unicycles? Pretty amazing that that he essentially has two jobs and a family. Maybe this is one of the reason his products are distributed through UDC.
    Last edited by Vertigo; 2017-02-01, 03:35 AM.

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  • Pinoclean
    replied
    Originally posted by finnspin View Post
    I don't think that's true anymore (if ever). KH 26" on ajata.com :669€, on municycle.com (udc Germany) 669€. Their supply chains are linked I think, but I believe you are making the unicycle market more hostile than it is.
    Just because ajata.com and municycle.com sell the unicycle for the same price does not mean they buy it for the same price. Assuming that unicycles have a markup of greater than 2x cost price, a unicycle that costs $200 to make by KH is sold to UDC for $300. If UDC distributes it to ajata they almost certainly sell it for more than they buy it from KH, say $330. Both UDC and Ajata then sell it for the $600, if Ajata sold it for more to make back the $30 no one would buy from them. Selling it for the same price as UDC Ajata still makes a large profit on it, but less than UDC makes. So we cannot assume that because another company sells for the same price as UDC that they receive it for the same price.

    The person who told me the details ran their own store, and sold KH's so it was definitely true at one point. I am assuming it still is true based on the fact that it is so rare that individual stores sell KH's.


    Originally posted by finnspin View Post
    I disagree with most of these. Maybe the 36" Oracle and the Impact Gravity compete with the equivalent KH. The Equinox just is not as good in stock form, and neither are the Oracles. They aren't meant to be.
    They may not compete exactly 1 to 1 in stock form however if you compare the UDC UK store the Oracle 26 is $660* the KH is $860*. For the $200 extra you can change parts before purchase or change parts after purchase and I am sure you will end up with a unicycle that is basically as good as the KH or very few will notice a difference. Similar with Equinox ($490) KH 20 ($615).

    Because of this I think they are very much competing, unlike before where the only nimbus trials was the "Nimbus II" knee basher in steel, and the nimbus II heavy as a tank mountain uni.


    *Ive used Australian dollars equivalent of the gbp in prices because the pound is harder for me to work out differences.

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  • finnspin
    replied
    Originally posted by Pinoclean View Post
    And if we want to talk about crazy. In 2014 I was told KH only supplies to UDC in each country and if you want to sell KH stuff you have to buy from UDC therefore paying a higher price than UDC pays.
    In the past I can see how that was a decent idea as it makes it easier for KH to ship his stuff and they were competing in different markets. However now UDC owns Impact and has a large number of high end unicycles competing against KH.
    I don't think that's true anymore (if ever). KH 26" on ajata.com :669€, on municycle.com (udc Germany) 669€. Their supply chains are linked I think, but I believe you are making the unicycle market more hostile than it is.

    KH 24-36 all compete with Oracles and nightfox
    Kh20s compete with Equinox and Impact Gravity Reagent.
    I disagree with most of these. Maybe the 36" Oracle and the Impact Gravity compete with the equivalent KH. The Equinox just is not as good in stock form, and neither are the Oracles. They aren't meant to be.

    Originally posted by Piece Maker View Post
    Let's hope they don't become some sort of monopoly
    Let's be honest:

    1. There are now more good quality Unicycle brands than ever. Impact, Kris Holm, Qu-ax (has a high end lineup now too), Mad4One, Nimbus, URC.
    2. The Unicycle.com Network has almost always been the primary dealer of unicycles. I don't think Kris Holm unicycles or Impact unicycles would have ever had a chance without an existing distribution network.

    With that said, what I am really interested in is what UDC's thinking was (if any occured) when launching a product so silently that I could hardly find information about it, and what their brand strategy of the Impact Athmos vs. the Nimbus Trials (these two ARE direct competitors, Pinoclean) is, since having them occupy different market's like Kris Holm and Nimbus do does not seem to be entirely it.

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  • lightbulbjim
    replied
    Originally posted by Piece Maker View Post
    some sort of monopoly
    A unopoly.

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