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Support our troops? (A gun is a tool with a worker at both ends)

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  • Support our troops? (A gun is a tool with a worker at both ends)

    Ok, so first off, my goal with this thread is to stimulate some dialogue. I'm not trying to offend anyone, and I'm trying to get all sides of this issue out there. Lets try to keep it civil. I make a few presopositions in this thread (the Iraq war is an unjust war) that you might not agree with. you're welcome to tell us that, but since that's not really the point of this thread, please don't harp on it.

    There are two sides to the support our troops issue.

    1) If soldiers stopped fighting, there wouldn't be any war. I realize that this doesn't apply in every situation, and I support every peoples' right to self determination (a whole other thread entirely), so occasionaly, there might be situations where soldiers are forced into fighting, and doing the right thing. I do not believe the Iraq war is one of these cases. The US is the agressor, and I believe that a lot of lives could be saved on both sides if soldiers refused to fight. So why support people who are choosing to be involved in this?

    2) Of course, on the other side of the coin, I do believe that the US government unfairly targets the poor and "minorities" for military recruitment. While there is no draft, there really is an underground draft, where people are pressured into joining up, without knowing all the details or consequences of their actions. These are not bad people, and infact, they may be just as angry about the war as I am. So maybe I should support our troops?

    I guess this is something that is just something I'd like to talk about. I like hearing new viewpoints. Feel free to correct any of my ideas. I really didn't mean to offend anyone, but I'm sure that I have, so please, talk about that too (within reason).

    By the way, I do believe that the only way to end the war in Iraq (or any war) is through the troops. (This is how the war in Vietnam was endded). As a civilian, I can organize and march and protest all I want, but until troops start rebeling against the fight, the war will go on.

    Cool? Cool.
    later,
    nick http://www.extreme.unicyclist.com

  • #2
    Originally posted by nick
    If soldiers stopped fighting, there wouldn't be any war.
    The problem is that both sides have to agree to the stop fighting part.
    Originally posted by nick
    so occasionaly, there might be situations where soldiers are forced into fighting
    as in the other side continuing to fight.
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    Munipsycho on the art of raising children: "My job is not to keep them from falling. It's to teach them to always get back up."

    Always give lots of credit and take very little. Seems to make everyone happier. Conversely, take as much responsibility for mistakes as one can assume! - Dr. Bobo

    unicycledude93: Steve Dekeokeok
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    • #3
      I feel like whether or not you support the current war is irrelevant.

      Our soldiers signed up to defend our country, and I respect that immensely.

      It is the current administration that initiated the war, and thus blame should not be placed on our soldiers. Would you hate cops because they are enforcing a law you don't agree with? Like I've heard before, they don't make the laws, they just enforce them.

      I support our soldiers in their effort and dedication to serving our country, regardless of whether or not I support any particular military action.

      That being said, I most definitely do NOT support the Iraq war.
      Nimbus 29 with Pi bar
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      • #4
        In my view, Soldiers are simply glorified murderer's/thugs. They may have had good intentions, but same with many murderer's/thugs. Unless drafted, I have little respect for those who fight to "protect their country". There are very few exceptions, but for the most part I disagree with the soldiers' decisions and feel that they deserve no support.

        Edit: wow... people are gona hate me for this...
        Last edited by peleschramm; 2008-05-06, 05:14 PM.
        http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=peleproductions
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        • #5
          Originally posted by peleschramm
          In my view, Soldiers are simply glorified murderer's/thugs. They may have had good intentions, but same with many murderer's/thugs. Unless drafted, I have little respect for those who fight to "protect their country". There are very few exceptions, but for the most part I disagree with the soldiers' decisions and feel that they deserve no support.

          Edit: wow... people are gona hate me for this...
          No hate, but I once again shake my head in wonder and amazement.
          `_______
          /l ,[____],
          l---L 0lllllll0-
          ()_) ()_)----)_)


          Munipsycho on the art of raising children: "My job is not to keep them from falling. It's to teach them to always get back up."

          Always give lots of credit and take very little. Seems to make everyone happier. Conversely, take as much responsibility for mistakes as one can assume! - Dr. Bobo

          unicycledude93: Steve Dekeokeok
          unicycledude93: Yoopers
          Byrnetown: haha, those are old guys

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by yoopers
            The problem is that both sides have to agree to the stop fighting part.
            If the invading country retreats, what is there really left to fight about? Yes, there will still be a little left to fight over between different factions, but they don't have the problem of the invading country playing both sides and will likely figure out more peaceful arrangements quicker, because people naturally like peace over war.
            Gilby

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            • #7
              Originally posted by SqueakyOnion
              I feel like whether or not you support the current war is irrelevant.

              Our soldiers signed up to defend our country, and I respect that immensely.

              It is the current administration that initiated the war, and thus blame should not be placed on our soldiers.
              What about the people who signed up after the war had started? Also, even if you had isgned up before, once things got to a point where you stopped agreeing with what's going on, you could always organize against it from the inside (see original post). Beter to refuse an order and face the consequences of that, than to rebuke your concious and live with those consequences for the rest of your life.

              Originally posted by SqueakyOnion

              Would you hate cops because they are enforcing a law you don't agree with?
              This actually made me laugh. I won't respond to this any more in this thread (make another if you like), but the question isn't a "would I" but a "do I," and the answer is an emphatic yes.

              Originally posted by peleschramm
              In my view, Soldiers are simply glorified murderer's/thugs. They may have had good intentions, but same with many murderer's/thugs. Unless drafted, I have little respect for those who fight to "protect their country". There are very few exceptions, but for the most part I disagree with the soldiers' decisions and feel that they deserve no support.

              Edit: wow... people are gona hate me for this...
              Read my second point in my original post, read more about what I talked about, and try to integrate that into your views. I certianly see where your comming from, but the whole point of this thread is that it's not such a black and white issue.

              Originally posted by Yoopers
              No hate, but I once again shake my head in wonder and amazement.
              Bruce, you are such a stand up guy, and I always appreciate your posts here.
              later,
              nick http://www.extreme.unicyclist.com

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              • #8
                Originally posted by nick
                the US government unfairly targets the poor and "minorities" for military recruitment
                You may see it as "unfair targeting" but the poor may see it as a way to earn a little money and eat decently while obtaining useful job skills. Is that really unfair?

                Originally posted by peleschramm
                Unless drafted, I have little respect for those who fight to "protect their country". There are very few exceptions, but for the most part I disagree with the soldiers' decisions and feel that they deserve no support.
                So I can walk into your house and throw you out, and you'll do nothing about it? I can live at your place and use all your stuff, and you won't care? I can kick your butt up one side of the street and down the other and you won't ever cry for help?
                "The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt." - Bertrand Russell

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Gilby
                  If the invading country retreats, what is there really left to fight about? Yes, there will still be a little left to fight over between different factions, but they don't have the problem of the invading country playing both sides and will likely figure out more peaceful arrangements quicker, because people naturally like peace over war.
                  But today's battlefields have a tendency to be larger than one country's borders.
                  `_______
                  /l ,[____],
                  l---L 0lllllll0-
                  ()_) ()_)----)_)


                  Munipsycho on the art of raising children: "My job is not to keep them from falling. It's to teach them to always get back up."

                  Always give lots of credit and take very little. Seems to make everyone happier. Conversely, take as much responsibility for mistakes as one can assume! - Dr. Bobo

                  unicycledude93: Steve Dekeokeok
                  unicycledude93: Yoopers
                  Byrnetown: haha, those are old guys

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    In my view, Soldiers are simply glorified murderer's/thugs. They may have had good intentions, but same with many murderer's/thugs. Unless drafted, I have little respect for those who fight to "protect their country". There are very few exceptions, but for the most part I disagree with the soldiers' decisions and feel that they deserve no support.

                    Edit: wow... people are gona hate me for this...


                    As a soldier during Desert Storm, I am deeply offended by your disregard for the freedoms you enjoy at the expense of other people's lives. Soldiers do a job that most can't or won't. Because of them you are able to do what you want, when you want without having to worry about someone coming and taking everything you have, including your life. The next time your out riding around on your unicycle, think about those that have died to allow you to do that.

                    Art

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by maestro8
                      You may see it as "unfair targeting" but the poor may see it as a way to earn a little money and eat decently while obtaining useful job skills. Is that really unfair?
                      Maybe not to them, but it is to those who end up paying the bills.
                      Gilby

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by maestro8
                        You may see it as "unfair targeting" but the poor may see it as a way to earn a little money and eat decently while obtaining useful job skills. Is that really unfair?
                        Yes, it is unfair. As a poor, independant, college student, I'm a target of those ads. It's really tempting to sign up, because college tuition is outrageous. Many of my friends have signed up, or done ROTC programs.

                        I'm not saying that I know what people want better than they do. I'm saying that the government isn't upfront with what the real costs of military service are, and what the real benifits may or may not be.

                        Look at the way veterans are treated by the US government. Look at the homeless rates, disabled, PTSD, hospitilization, other mental problems. Look up how many people who serve actually end up with all those awesome benefits you see on the TV commercials (hint, not many). The fact that instead of paying people to kill other people (directly or indirectly), the government could be paying them to do something usefull, or providing scholarships without any pricetag. I'll leave it to Gilby to come up with an argument as to why cutting so much military spending would be helping the poor, even without the addition of new government benifits (I know those libertarians are crafty like that).
                        Last edited by nick; 2008-05-06, 06:19 PM.
                        later,
                        nick http://www.extreme.unicyclist.com

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Falling4Fun
                          As a soldier during Desert Storm, I am deeply offended by your disregard for the freedoms you enjoy at the expense of other people's lives. Soldiers do a job that most can't or won't. Because of them you are able to do what you want, when you want without having to worry about someone coming and taking everything you have, including your life. The next time your out riding around on your unicycle, think about those that have died to allow you to do that.
                          I sense a bias there. The question in this thread is whether one should support the troops who volunteer to participate in an unjust war, meaning one that was started for the wrong reasons, and therefore does not protect our freedoms, and likely actually harms them.
                          Gilby

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by peleschramm
                            In my view, Soldiers are simply glorified murderer's/thugs. They may have had good intentions, but same with many murderer's/thugs. Unless drafted, I have little respect for those who fight to "protect their country". There are very few exceptions, but for the most part I disagree with the soldiers' decisions and feel that they deserve no support.

                            Edit: wow... people are gona hate me for this...
                            It depends on the war. WWII for example. The Allied troops were heroic people and they faught to defend freedom.

                            Our current wars, not so much. But let us not forget that the real murderers are the governments that employ them.

                            But I question why someone would sign up to be the army's killing tool for an unjust war. Unless they gotted brainwashed. Which is pretty easy to do in your local high school...
                            Last edited by Goats_On_Unicycles; 2008-05-06, 06:29 PM.
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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Gilby
                              I sense a bias there. The question in this thread is whether one should support the troops who volunteer to participate in an unjust war, meaning one that was started for the wrong reasons, and therefore does not protect our freedoms, and likely actually harms them.
                              For the large majority, soldiers do not get to volunteer for certain duties. They receive orders. Their volunteering comes by way of a decision to join our fighting forces and serve where needed.
                              `_______
                              /l ,[____],
                              l---L 0lllllll0-
                              ()_) ()_)----)_)


                              Munipsycho on the art of raising children: "My job is not to keep them from falling. It's to teach them to always get back up."

                              Always give lots of credit and take very little. Seems to make everyone happier. Conversely, take as much responsibility for mistakes as one can assume! - Dr. Bobo

                              unicycledude93: Steve Dekeokeok
                              unicycledude93: Yoopers
                              Byrnetown: haha, those are old guys

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