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Lance Armstrong... WINS!?!?!

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Catboy View Post
    Yes, he did. And so did the rest. The 2005 top 10:
    1 Lance Armstrong (USA) - 1000 pages of evidece, 0 positive tests, or was it maybe 6.
    2 Ivan Basso (ITA) - Implicated in Operación Puerto and suspended in 2007 for two years for admitting to planning to use doping.
    3 Jan Ullrich (GER) - admitted
    4 Francisco Mancebo (ESP) - implicated in Operación Puerto and banned from 2006 Tour
    5 Alexandre Vinokourov (KAZ) - Blood doping at 2007 Tour de France, one-year ban
    6 Levi Leipheimer (USA) - admitted
    7 Michael Rasmussen (DEN) - Whereabouts testing violations, removed by own team from 2007 Tour de France, while being in yellow.
    8 Cadel Evans (AUS) - Was coached by Michele Ferrari
    9 Floyd Landis (USA) - Tested positive for Testosterone during 2006 Tour and disqualified. Later admitted to doping throughout his career.
    10 Óscar Pereiro (ESP) - Tested positive for Salbutamol in 2006, but later acquitted.

    Originally posted by brendan View Post
    american drugs are still the best!
    Then why are there so many American tourists in Amsterdam (but wearing Canadian symbols)?
    But, since EPO is "something in the line of a neccairy evil", is it then a Monsanto product to?

    Originally posted by johnfoss View Post
    Lance, and the others, are innocent until proven guilty.
    But the proof (and conditions of aquire) is somewhat stinky to. Although I think it comes closer to the truth, I rather see some more prosper conditions of the collecting of "evidence".

    Originally posted by johnfoss View Post
    There's something to be said for zero positive tests...
    Unless the very same tricks were pulled as at tests 50 years ago, when male riders turned out pregnant according their urine...!



    And while everybody is focussed or staring at one side, don't forget to look at the other direction:

    I found it remarkable that during this tour Frank Schleck was complaining about the UCI paycheck escrow service not paying his wage...
    The same afternoon he was "positive", left the tour, and the press-release was all forgotten.
    All excuses of Andy to not compete were too lame to be true. Same for Cancellara...
    I predict a tail-store there, and think here was sitting some money stuck (with Johan Bruyneel?) in stead or rolling, that I think may be the rotten root of the recent events with Lance past year.

    Meanwhile Paul Kimmage did not yet survive "The cancer of cycling"...

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZgns7CXeUI"]Lance Armstrong & Paul Kimmage verbal battle at Tour of California 2009 - YouTube[/ame]
    (by now the entire table -probably including Lance- admitted dope)
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    • #32
      Originally posted by leo View Post
      But, since EPO is "something in the line of a neccairy evil", is it then a Monsanto product to?
      Recombinant erythropoietin is not a necessary evil, it's a replacement hormone for renal patients. What on earth does it have to do with Monsanto? Aside from the fact it replies on recombinant technology?
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      • #33
        Originally posted by johnfoss View Post
        There's something to be said for zero positive tests...
        That means very little.

        Erythopoietin is a natural hormone produced in the body, so it is very difficult to detect. The only reason it is detectable is that the recombinant protein has some post-translational modificiations added by the drug company...a couple of sugar chains. That gives it a different isoelectric point on two-dimentional gel electrophoresis.

        Now, 2DGE is one of the lousiest tests ever invented. You separate proteins by molecular weight on one axis, then by pH on the other. What you end up with is a mess of dots called a proteome. You have to find the extra dot corresponding to recombinant EPO, and then prove that is in fact what it is.

        On top of that, they are trying to purify proteins from urine, which contains very little protein. Scratch some protease under your fingernail and dunk it in the urine and it's goodbye proteins.

        Then there are autologous blood transfusions. The only way to detect it is by using some ratio of reticulocytes (immature red blood cells). That test hasn't even been validated yet.

        In short, you'd have to be stupid to fail a drug test.
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        • #34
          Originally posted by leo View Post
          Yes, he did. And so did the rest. The 2005 top 10...
          So it sounds like the playing field is relatively level then... what's the big deal here? Let 'em all dope!

          If the fans want to see a drug-free sport, they can watch a chess tournament.
          "The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt." - Bertrand Russell

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          • #35
            Originally posted by GizmoDuck View Post
            Recombinant erythropoietin is not a necessary evil, it's a replacement hormone for renal patients. What on earth does it have to do with Monsanto?
            "necessary evil" is what Katti Armstong named it, according an excerpt of the hearing of Betsy Andreu.

            And at (only) the Monsanto part I was kidding, as I've been told that multinational is worse than the root of all evil. So when drugs/america/evil was named in one breath, I was wondering of a link. But since I now read about patents covering “DNA Sequences Encoding Erythropoietin” and cloning, I don't think it wouldn't even be that odd if there was.

            But funny to learn about the regular use of EPO.

            Originally posted by GizmoDuck View Post
            you'd have to be stupid to fail a drug test.
            Depends on the conditions. It's easy to fail when your federal anti-dope doctor is also on the competitors team (...), and claims that he saw you, while you missed his unexpected unannounced out-of-compition test, because you were in another country. Then you cannot start any law case, as such Belgium doc's in federal duty are impossible to oppose against; they are the law enforcers. So voila; failed a drug test, without doing the stupid test. Not a unique case.
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            • #36
              "What am I on?

              I'm on my bike, busting my arse, 6 hours a day.

              What are you on?"
              Three short Gs and a long E-flat™ - UniHoki
              If I'm Murdered, Don't Execute My Killer.
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              • #37
                Originally posted by leo View Post
                Yes, he did. And so did the rest. The 2005 top 10:
                8 Cadel Evans (AUS) - Was coached by Michele Ferrari
                That's pretty unfair. As he has clarified, he had one testing session with Ferrari - on the advice of his then manager Tony Rominger (who given subsequent revelations probably did know Ferrari on a more intimate basis). I hardly think that marks him down as a drugs cheat.

                I should point out that not only am I not Australian, I'm not even particularly an Evans fan, but I do believe he was (and is) clean.
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                • #38
                  Originally posted by leo View Post
                  10 Óscar Pereiro (ESP) - Tested positive for Salbutamol in 2006, but later acquitted.
                  Likewise for salbutamol. If you have asthma and presented to Emergency, the first dose of nebulised salbutamol, would put you over the UCI limit.

                  I'm not debating guilt or otherwise for Oscar Pereiro, but pointing out that not all PEDs are the same. You get negligible improvement with beta agonists. You'll get some improvement from anabolic steroids (but not from corticosteroids which Lance Armstrong tested positive to in 1999).

                  EPO and autologous blood transfusions...that's the difference between finishing mid-pack and winning the GC.
                  Last edited by GizmoDuck; 2012-10-23, 01:09 AM.
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                  • #39
                    Holy thread revival batman!

                    Just looking for a place to rant against the machine or what?

                    Who cares a rat's arse what a professional athlete does to win?

                    Seriously, do you expect some sort of higher morality from people who get millions of dollars to stay on top of the podium?

                    They use whatever means they can to win, winning is why they compete, if they don't win, then they lose, after which they have to get a real job.

                    The next thing you'll suggest is that politicians should take lie detector tests during debates

                    No one cares if Lance is a doper, he is an amazing athlete, all the other stuff is soap opera fodder.

                    And I doubt he even knows how to ride a unicycle!
                    Last edited by Nurse Ben; 2012-10-23, 02:09 AM.
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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Nurse Ben View Post
                      Holy thread revival batman!

                      And I doubt he even knows how to ride a unicycle!
                      he rides tall bikes though...
                      Attached Files

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by GizmoDuck View Post
                        Scratch some protease under your fingernail and dunk it in the urine and it's goodbye proteins.


                        Gross. Too gross for anyone to actually DO!
                        While you and I are having our cake-and-ice-cream party, the others are having a drink-the-blood-of-the-poor party in the back room. --[QUOTE=maestro8;1433130]

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Nurse Ben View Post
                          No one cares if Lance is a doper, he is an amazing athlete, all the other stuff is soap opera fodder.
                          Most people want fair game, and they don't want cheaters to win. And athletes who are MORE amazing got robbed of their medals 7 times by Lance.
                          While you and I are having our cake-and-ice-cream party, the others are having a drink-the-blood-of-the-poor party in the back room. --[QUOTE=maestro8;1433130]

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by maestro8 View Post
                            So it sounds like the playing field is relatively level then... what's the big deal here? Let 'em all dope!

                            If the fans want to see a drug-free sport, they can watch a chess tournament.
                            It's actually a real topic of discussion, drug in chess tournamensts. Starts with coffee ends with so called "brain boosters" (ADHD drugs for example).

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                            beim Umfallen nicht Auffallen."

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                            • #44
                              Most people want fair game, and they don't want cheaters to win. And athletes who are MORE amazing got robbed of their medals 7 times by Lance.
                              ..and they are almost all white guys, who came from privilege, who make money pimping products, who do nothing to advance society, who are complete strangers to you, and you care why?

                              Billy, I'll be honest with you, my opinion of professional sports has never been very high.

                              If I am going to be interested in a sport, it will be a sport that I participate in as either a player or coach.

                              I don't believe in watching other people play sports unless they are family or freind.

                              I think watching, caring, putting any kind of emotion into some stranger's play is simply ludicrous, as evidenced by the drama surrounding doping in cycling.

                              It amazes me how much people care about something that has nothing to do with them personally.

                              People, get a life! Kill you TV, stop watching all that crap, instead volunteer in your community, get some exercise, spend time with your family, play with your dogs, work on your house, do anything but watch other people doing stuff.

                              Rant over

                              And I like coffee, but I'm not much for chess, I'm more of a Triominoes or card game kinda guy.
                              Last edited by Nurse Ben; 2012-10-23, 01:23 PM.
                              I dream of hamsters and elderberries

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Nurse Ben View Post
                                If I am going to be interested in a sport, it will be a sport that I participate in as either a player or coach.
                                Does that mean I'm allowed to care about bike racing then?
                                Unicycling: great for your thighs.

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